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 Robert Gray Killybegs Commander of HMS Fly
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| Spicer |
Posted on 05/11/2014 11:56
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 New Member  Posts: 6 Joined: 04/11/2014 |
I am looking for some help in finding out whether Robert Gray's death in May 1876 aged 49 was related to his work as Commander of the HMS Fly. He died on 13th May in County Donegal and according to Burial records was buried in Killybegs but unfortunately no records still exist of his death certificate or Will since they were destroyed. Robert's wife Elizabeth gave birth to her 9th child a month after Robert's death and I am wondering what sort of help she would have received from the Coastguard Service in getting her family back to Portsea where she was at the time of the 1881 Census. I would also like to find out at what point Robert left working as a seaman for the Merchant service and joined the coastguard and whether he did this via the Royal Navy. I have the following information and would welcome being pointed in the right direction to find the information that I am looking for. He was serving as acting chief boatswains mate aboard Harwich Harbour Vessels on the 1861 census. At the birth of one of his children in Yarmouth in 1866 he was a seaman aboard the revenue cutter Dolphin but I don't know where the Dolphin was based or whether Robert had now joined the coastguard service. Robert appears on the Navy List for 1870 as Senior Mate aboard the coastguard cruiser Fly tender to Valiant, Lough Swilley. Is this his entry into the Coastguard service? In 1873 he was Chief Officer aboard the HMS Fly and in 1875 was Commander of HMS Fly. It appears that all his service in Ireland was aboard the Fly and I wondering if it would be possible to find out a bit more about the role of this Revenue Cruiser. Many thanks for any help you are able to give me in finding out about this interesting ancestor. Spicer. |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 06/11/2014 16:57
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 Administrator  Posts: 906 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Spicer welcome to the Forum. Let me say from the outset that I’m a little vague as to the relationship between the men who served on the Revenue Cruisers, the Coastguard Service and the Admiralty. Your man first appears in the CG records when nominated from the Revenue Cruiser (RC) Active, where he served as a ‘Mariner’, to be the Gunner aboard the RC Dispatch, this was on 15 October 1856 (ADM 175/24 pdf 51). This particular series of CG records only list those men with substantive rates, not the ordinary mariners. To trace back these men’s service it is necessary to consult the RC Muster books in the ADM 119 series at the National Archives. If your man’s last ship was a RN vessel, the Muster Books might show this. On the 26 October 1857 he joined the RC Dolphin as Gunner and Acting Chief Boatswains Mate (ADM 175/24 pdf 42), at this point the trail goes cold in the CG records. I could find no evidence of a naval service record in either ADM 139, 188 or 29, nor a record in ADM 196, which is the series covering officers service. My only suggestion is to look on Find my Past at their Merchant Seaman’s Tickets. Unfortunately this is a pay to view site, but I believe that for this weekend only it is possible to sign up for free access. Both CGs and men in the RN were issued with these tickets, and it is possible that your man had one, which might provide a clue as to his previous service and supply a physical description. Do let us know how you get on. Regards Martin. |
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| Spicer |
Posted on 07/11/2014 16:14
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New Member Posts: 6 Joined: 04/11/2014 |
Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to consult so many records to try and help me. These were not in places where I would have looked myself. It is so encouraging to get some new information. I have now filled in some of the gaps with the information that you gave me. Robert was born in Mundesley in 1827 the son of a coastguard officer. Gap now as there is no information until - He is married in Brightlinsea, Essex in 1855 1856 He appears on the RC Active and is being transferred to the RC Dispatch. 1857 he is Acting Chief Boatswains Mate on the Dolphin. I believe the trail may have gone cold there because it is possible that he may have remained in service on the Dolphin. The 1861 census shows him as Acting Boatswains Mate on Harwich Harbour Vessels but the vessel is not named. 1866 he is a seaman on the RC Dolphin on one of his children's birth certificates. It may be that he stayed on the Dolphin until he appears on the Navy List in 1870. Just a thought! 1870 Robert is appointed as Senior Mate on the RC HMS Fly and posted to Ireland. He remained serving on the Fly until his death and burial in Killybegs in 1876. I will certainly visit the NA and check out the Muster Books to see if I can find out any further information. Thank you also for telling me about the free weekend at Find My Past - I have had a wonderful time this morning checking out their records. Unfortunately although Robert appears on the BT 114 records there is nothing apart from his name, place of birth and a ticket number. I did however find 3 of his Merchant Seaman brothers and their records were complete with descriptions. I am left to wonder why Robert's didn't show the information. I also found Robert's coastguard father and some of his family on the 1851 census in a place where I hadn't previously looked. I now have his father's birthplace which is a step further back into the past. I feel like I hit the jackpot today even though there is still more to find out! Thank you again your help has been much appreciated. Spicer. |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 07/11/2014 16:55
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Administrator Posts: 906 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Spicer I'm glad my information provided some fresh leads and helped you fill in a few blanks. Re the 1861 census the vessel he was on was the RC Scout , just go to the preceeding page of the census to confirm this. If he came from a CG family there are other records that can be consulted - namely the ADM 175 series - that would provide further details re his fathers career. If you require any further help just let me know. Martin |
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| Spicer |
Posted on 08/11/2014 15:59
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New Member Posts: 6 Joined: 04/11/2014 |
Hello Martin Thank you for the info re the RC Scout. I am wondering if you think it may have been possible that either Robert Gray or his coastguard father Thomas Gray born 1793 may have served in the Crimea? Thomas was pensioned from the Enchantress in 1852 but I understand that coastguard officers who had retired were recruited to go to the Crimea. Could you tell me where to look for those records please? I like the new look of the site. Spicer |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 09/11/2014 07:54
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Administrator Posts: 906 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Thomas would have been too old to serve with the Fleet, but could have been asked back to cover for men in the Fleet, but unfortunately I know of no records that show these men. On the medal roll there is an R Gray who served in HMS Nile (ships No.462) whose Baltic medal was sent to the Southend CG District in 1857. I’ve looked at the Establishment Books for all the stations in this District and cannot find an R Gray. However, I recently researched a RC man who did serve with the Fleet, and whose medal was sent to a CG District, it is therefore just possible that this is your man. If you do go to the National Archives have a look at Nile’s Description Book (ADM 38/ 8613) this should provide enough information to prove/disprove that you have the right man. When I was researching my database of CG men who served in the Crimea Nile’s Description Book was perhaps the best, since it also included the mans actual date of birth. In addition, if this is your man, it will list his previous RN ships and when he served on them, together with a physical description. Martin |
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| Spicer |
Posted on 10/11/2014 09:08
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New Member Posts: 6 Joined: 04/11/2014 |
Hello Martin It's brilliant that you have so much information at hand and that you are prepared to share it. I now have a little list to go to the National Archives with and hope to get there this side of Christmas. I do hope the R Gray who served on the Nile is my man and that I can find out more about him. Robert's father Thomas and his wife's family all lived in Brightlinsea, Essex so there is a chance that Southend will tie in. I will let you know how I get on at the NA. Thanks again for your help. Spicer Merged on 22/11/2014 15:59:51: Hello again Martin I am hoping to go to the NA on Thursday of next week and have been getting organised so that I have all the known RC 's that Robert Gray served on ready to check out the Ships Musters. Also the Ships Description book for HMS NIle. I wonder if I could enlist your help again before I go? I saw that one of the RC's that Robert served on was a Tender and discovered that I could download the record ADM 175/26 which recorded information on Tenders for the period 1858 - 1868. To my great surprise and delight I found 3 records for Robert Gray listed. The relevant page numbers are 36/130 37/130 and 102/130. I am really hoping that if you have a copy of ADM175/26 that you would be willing to help me make sense of them as you did on the previous list that you posted. I really want to get straight a list of when he joined and when he left each Tender and fit it In to the other info that you gave me. Some of the writing is difficult to make out. Also on the last record it says TRANSFERRED and I am wondering if that has any special significance. We know that he was on the SCOUT at the time of the 1861 census but that doesn't appear anywhere. If he indeed served on the NILE that doesn't appear anywhere either so there are still some gaps. There is also a reference to a Robert Gray from Mundesley serving as a Mate on the DILIGENCE in the 1871 Census however, he is aged 29 and Robert would have been 42 by then. According to the Navy List Robert was serving on the FLY in June of 1870 and he was definately on the FLY in 1873, 1875 and at his death in May 1876. I feel that gradually the missing years are being accounted for but it will probably be more difficult to fill in the earlier years of his career. Looking forward to hearing from you. Spicer Edited by Spicer on 22/11/2014 15:59 |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 24/11/2014 11:31
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Administrator Posts: 906 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Spicer I've looked at ADM 175/26 and it would appear that he was transferred to Dolphin from Dispatch on 26 Oct 1857, with the rate of Chief Gunners Mate, then on the 1 Dec 1864 was promoted to Act(ing) M(asters) Assistant, remaning on Dolphin. However, the rate shown is now Chief Quarter Master with a note that he passed exam for Acting Masters Assistant. The same page has him being promoted to Second Mate in Command of the Providence on 22 Jan 1868. The subsequent note 'Transferred' does not mean to a new ship, but to a later 'Ships Establishment Book', which does not appear to have survived. I wish you good luck with your visit to Kew, my only word of caution is, if you don't already have a readers ticket make sure you take all the required forms of id - they are real jobs-worths on this issue. Martin |
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| Spicer |
Posted on 25/11/2014 13:08
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New Member Posts: 6 Joined: 04/11/2014 |
Thanks for your help once again Martin, you have made the records much clearer to me. I do have a readers ticket that is still valid so now I am all set hopefully to discover some additional information about Robert Gray. I am pinning my hopes on the man you discovered on HMS NILE being him and that there will be a description of him in the records. After consulting the Ships Musters for the other RC's I am hoping that Any records for HMS FLY in 1876 may give me some information on Robert's death. Lastly, if time I will try and check the relevant widow's pension records as I know that Elizabeth Gray was receiving a Naval Pension. Maybe there will be something of interest there. I will keep you informed of any success. Spicer Merged on 27/11/2014 19:59:56: Hi Martin - Brilliant day at the NA although not enough time. Another trip needed! The R. Gray on HMS NILE is my man so am giving you the details to add to your database He joined the NILE on 19th April 1854 and was discharged on 29th April 1856. Parish - Mundesley Town - Mundesley County - Norfolk Usual place of residence - Brightlinsea Age 28 years 0 months Stature: Feet 5. Inches 5 Complexion - Dark Eyes - Blue hair - Brown Marks on person - None Vaccinated against smallpox Single Whither, also conduct noted on certificate." Victory". Very good. Will do another post tomorrow to let you know what else I found in case it may be of any help to someone else at a later date. Thanks for the ref details of the Nile, saved precious time finding it. Spicer. Edited by Spicer on 27/11/2014 19:59 |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 28/11/2014 07:07
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Administrator Posts: 906 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Great news! Will certainly add his details to the database, and look forward to your next post. Martin |
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| Spicer |
Posted on 29/11/2014 16:48
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New Member Posts: 6 Joined: 04/11/2014 |
Hello Martin Firstly referring back to HMS NILE I have a couple of questions. There was a date written in red sideways on in the section that was about Robert Gray. The date was 4th Feb 1825, am I right in assuming that the date was his correct date of birth? Secondly, see my last post regarding the word "Victory", does that refer to another ship that Robert was transferred to before going back to HMS ACTIVE or does it refer to something else? I found Robert, a Mariner, transferred from the RC VICTORINE to the RC FAIRY on 6th January 1848 aged 22. He requested a transfer to RC ACTIVE and joined her on 5th April the same year, again as a Mariner. Whilst on the ACTIVE he spent some time in hospital in Portsmouth with 'ordinary sickness' during 1853. From 6th Jan - 13th Jan when he was sent home and than again from 18th Jan - 17th May. There was a note to say "This man's discharge certificate forwarded to Mr Hastings on the 18th May for transmission to the coastguard office. He was discharged from ACTIVE on 16th August 1856. (Note I should have paid more attention to the dates whilst I was there but was struggling to read the writing so am not sure whether the discharge note was connected to his joining the HMS NILE in 1854 or his final discharge from the ACTIVE in 1856). Will check again next visit. He was then on the HMS NILE from 19th April 1854 to discharge on 29th April 1856. Was he on a ship named VICTORY for a couple of months before finally being Discharged from the RC ACTIVE 16th August on promotion to HMS DISPATCH on 17th August 1856. Aged 31 he was a probationary gunner. He was gunner in charge on 17th Feb 1857 and Acting Commander and Returning Officer on 12th May 1857. He was discharged on 30th October 1857 and removed to HMS DOLPHIN as per order. You have given me the details from the DOLPHIN onwards on previous posts. I think he must have broken his service on the DOLPHIN if he was on the SCOUT in 1861. Are there any muster books/description books for years after 1857 as I couldn't find them and ran out of time? Robert was on the RC PROVIDENCE in 1868 but at the moment can't follow through on where he moved from or to as with RC SCOUT and possibly RC DILIGENCE. Looking forward to my next visit going backwards from the VICTORINE and hopefully forwards too. Not many more years to fill in beforehis death in 1876. Thank you once again for your help on this. I am now hooked on Coastguard history! Spicer |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 29/11/2014 21:31
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Administrator Posts: 906 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Hi Spicer The date in red certainly sounds as if it is the date of birth he gave, which is not necessarily his actual date of birth. I say this because I have found men who have given the date of their baptism not their actual date of birth when signing on. Until you establish otherwise I would accept this as his actual date of birth. The Victory is HMS Victory, which acted as a receiving ship. This means he was on her books until appointed to another vessel, in his case the Revenue Cruiser Active. It’s good that you are hooked on CG history, and if you wanted to now more about the Baltic Fleet during the Crimean War I would recommend ‘The British Assault on Finland 1854-1855, a forgotten naval war’ by Basil Greenhill and Ann Giffard. Martin |
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