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 William, George and James McCullen
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| kevinmccullen |
Posted on 25/10/2007 13:11
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 New Member  Posts: 8 Joined: 25/10/2007 |
By looking at this website and linking to The Irish Times archive, I have found out that when the Coastguard Cutter 'Fanny' went down in 1878, James(1858) and George(1856)(referred to as John in some articles) were amongst those drowned. Their brother William (1861) eventually moved to Tollesbury in Essex as a land-based coastguard there. He then ended up in Gravesend in Kent where he retired. William was my great-grandfather. I am trying to find out more about William, James and George's father, a Captain McCullen who was also in the Revenue/Coastguard service. I have a large, original photo of Captain McCullen on the deck of a boat with his crew and also a later studio photograph of him after promotion. I think his first name is also William but I cannot be totally sure. I will submit these photographs later; certainly the one showing him on the deck of his boat is very interesting. If anyone knows about Captain McCullen or how I can track down any documents, please let me know. I have his son's service records, downloaded from the National Archives but Captain McCullen is not listed. |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 26/10/2007 14:43
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 Administrator  Posts: 905 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Hi Kevin and welcome to the Forum I'm not sure that I can throw any light on your Captain McCullen, but if he was commissioned as an officer you will not find his records online from the NA. Those records that are on line are only for seamen, and cover service from 1872 onwards. To find a man's service prior to this date you need to go to the NA and search the ADM 139 series of records, which cover the period 1853 -1872. There is a further series, ADM 29 which is for service prior to 1853. However, ADM 29 can be checked online via the 'catalogue', but I could find no McCullens'. Unfortunately records do not exist for every man in the Navy for these periods. If he was commissioned you need to consult the ADM 196 series, which is the Officers records of service - a card index to this series is available at the NA. Another check worth making, if at the NA, is the 'Navy Lists' for the years you think Capt. McCullen was on active duty. These list all those officers, both on the active and retired lists, together with every RN vessel and their key officers. I did consult another very good internet site that had three McCullens' listed (link below) that may add to your general information. http://www.pbenyo...Index.html Regards Martin |
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| kevinmccullen |
Posted on 26/10/2007 16:21
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New Member Posts: 8 Joined: 25/10/2007 |
Thanks, Martin for that most helpful reply. I will certainly be following up your leads. Did you take a look at the photo I posted showing "Captain McCullen and crew"? He's the one I am looking for. Do you know what rank he has from this photo? I have another photo of him taken later after a promotion. He had an extra ring on his cuff. 'The Irish Times' archive seems to be an excellent resource for anyone looking for 'background' on coastguard activities. The search facility is not foolproof but articles from the era are far more factual than any written today. My one reference to 'Captain McCullen' came from the Nov 2nd 1878 edition, in an article about the 'Fanny' sinking. "Two young men belonging to the crew of the 'Fanny', John (sic) and James McCullen, who were well known in Kingstown for their strict adhesion to temperence principles, joined the cutter on her last cruise. Both of them were drowned. Their father, Captain McCullen, a respected citizen of Kingstown, proceeded last night to Cork..." Very sad. Regards Kevin McCullen |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 26/10/2007 21:47
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Administrator Posts: 905 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Kevin Under the 1856 regulations Captains had 3 rings, Commanders 2 and Lieutenants 1, each of a ½” wide band of gold lace. Also at this time Mates (a rank between Midshipman and Lieutenant) wore one ring of ¼” gold twist/braid – in 1863 this rank was to become Sub-lieutenant. Just to possibly confuse matters, Masters were also entitled to wear a single ½” row of lace. An Admiralty Order of 1863 saw the introduction of 4,3,2 & 1 rows of ½” lace for Captains, Commanders, Lieutenants and Sub-Lieutenants respectively. All of the above included an ‘executive curl’ over the top most ring, as part of the lace. Looking at your photograph, I think that your ancestor was rated as a Lieutenant, and suspect that the title ‘Captain’ refers to him being the senior most officer on the ship, not his actual rank. However, all the above relates to the Royal Navy, and whether the same distinctions applied to Coastguard Officers I really do not know, but since the Coastguard service was part of the RN it is not unreasonable to think that the rank distinctions are the same. Regards Martin Edited by crimea1854 on 28/10/2007 11:15 |
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| kevinmccullen |
Posted on 27/10/2007 18:22
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New Member Posts: 8 Joined: 25/10/2007 |
Thanks Martin for your helpfil and prompt reply. My father has 'Captain' McCullen's long service medal (I think that's what it is) which I will photograph when I next see him. I will post a picture of the medal to see if any members can give me some info about it. Thanks again and kind regards Kevin |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 28/10/2007 09:15
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Administrator Posts: 905 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Kevin If you do have 'Captain' McCullen's Long Service & Good Conduct medal this could hold a number of clues to help you trace his service. LS&GC medals were always issued named. The actual wording around the rim should provide details of his rank when the medal was awarded. The naming was also in two distinct styles, 'engraved' and 'impressed'. These styles changed in March 1877, so if you can identify which it is, it will help to give an indication as to which side of this date the medal was awarded. The other tell-tale is the width of the suspender and ribbon. There are others, but given the likely time frame I think these are unlikely to be relevant. If you are going to photograph the medal, please do try and include a shot of the naming. Regards Martin Edited by crimea1854 on 28/10/2007 11:14 |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 28/10/2007 14:32
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Administrator Posts: 905 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Kevin Because its raining and my wife is out all day, I've spent a little time doing some online research to try and find your 'Captain' McCullen - with what I think is some success! By coincidence there is another website where a relative of yours (Johnny Doyle) thanks Tony and this site for the help given in finding his Gt Grandfather, which also looks to be your man - see link below. http://www.rootsc...c=152801.0 From the above link you can access Chas McCullen's NA service record, which in the top left hand corner has what looks to be a CS number that would enable you to check the ADM 139 series of service records. If the dates and places tie up with the birth places of your known ancestors then that would appear to be proof positive! (the medal details will also confirm this) So if you are satisfied that Charles A McCullen is the man you are seeking, the recently posted article here, which are extracts from the Navy List, has Charles McCullen as the Chief Officer at Ringsend, Dublin in 1899, where possibly your photograph was taken. Regards Martin Edited by crimea1854 on 28/10/2007 14:33 |
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| kevinmccullen |
Posted on 28/10/2007 21:58
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New Member Posts: 8 Joined: 25/10/2007 |
Hi Martin and thank you again for your help. Unfortunately, Charles' dates don't tie up. Unless he had his first son George at the age of 7!! Thanks for the interest though. I phoned my father and got him to look at the medal. It has the rank as 'Boatman' and the name as Wm McCullen - presumably William. But William was also one of the sons who joined up in 1879 (2 years after his brothers George and James were drowned) and became a 'Boatman' in 1888. So it would seem that I need to 'date' the medal to see whose it was! It seems to be engraved, making it pre-1877 in which case it must be the elder McCullen and his name must be William also. I have sent off for William the younger's marriage certificate (he moved to Tollesbury in Essex and married Eliza Jane Drake) so that should have his father's name on it. I had, in fact found John Doyle's website and obtained various McCullen Service Records. Amongst them is a Joseph McCullen, born in Monkstown (1865) the same as 'young' William. They could be brothers but I have no proof at all. I intend to visit the NA ASAP. I really am 'hooked' now on finding this elusive McCullen! By the way, there is a book about Tollesbury brought out in 2000. It can be found on-line by searching 'Tollesbury'. There is an interesting section about Coastguards in there and a picture. William McCullen just happens to appear in the photo, second from the right. I will post any extra info if I get it. Regards Kevin |
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| kevinmccullen |
Posted on 03/11/2007 16:33
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New Member Posts: 8 Joined: 25/10/2007 |
Hi Martin At last I have found the name of the elusive 'Captain' McCullen, the father of William, George and James McCullen and he who is shown on my two recently submitted photos. It is Joseph. I have also determined that the younger Joseph referred to in my last message was a brother of William, George and James. For all those searching for ancestors, obtaining a marriage certificate can be most helpful. In my case I obtained William's and Joseph jr's and both showed the same father; Joseph. Joseph jr. moved to Kent (Romney), still as a coastguard and married Hellen Norkett (daughter of William Norkett) in 1895. A son, William was born in 1895, Elsie in 1897 (died aged 7) and Hilda was born in 1898. So I may have some living relatives I never knew I had! I will photograph the medal next week. Do you know how long a coastguard had to serve before being awarded the LS&GC medal?. Now I know that the medal did belong to William, and his service began on 17th June 1879, it seems odd that it has the name engraved, not impressed. It also shows the young Queen Victoria. Hopefully I can sort this out when I photograph the medal. Again, very many thanks for your interest and advice. Regards Kevin |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 03/11/2007 20:35
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Administrator Posts: 905 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Kevin Congratulations on finding your man, don’t you just love it when the last piece of the jigsaw finally fits into place. Regarding the qualification for the medal; when first introduced in 1830 the RN LSGC medal was awarded when a ship ‘paid off’, on a quota basis. The number granted depended on the crew size of the ship, and was awarded at a ratio of 1 per 100 men, and then only to men with 21 or more year’s unblemished service (in 1853 this was reduced to 20 years). Despite being under Admiralty control from 1856, Coastguard men did not become eligible for the LSGC medal until 1873. Again a quota system was applied, but based on ‘Districts’ e.g. Kingstown had 4 awarded annually where Leith only had 1 every two years. Since the man had to do a minimum of 20 years service, it invariably followed that he had prior RN service. In 1875 the qualification period was reduced from 20 to 10 years, and the quota system scrapped, with the award being made at any time during the man’s service. However, if the recipient left the navy without completing 15 years eligible service, the medal was forfeit to the Crown. It was this change of qualification period, and the sudden increase in the number of medals awarded, which prompted the Admiralty to review the cost of engraving medals with the man's name. As a consequence the cheaper ‘impressed’ method of naming was introduced. In 1884, the Admiralty again reviewed the qualification period and increased it to 15 years. On the issue of the Queen’s head, unlike campaign medals throughout Queen Victoria’s reign, the RN LSGC medal retained the ‘young’ head, first introduced in 1847, until 1902 when Edward VII came to the throne. Medals prior to this date were of a completely different design, using a ‘fouled’ anchor instead of the monarch’s head. Interestingly the design on the reverse with HMS Victory, used since 1847, remains in use today. Tony has asked me to contribute an illustrated article on medals to CG men, but I am currently struggling to get any decent pictures of medals in my collection, particularly of the naming styles. Still Christmas is coming and I may ask Santa for a new camera, with a decent macro lens! Regards Martin |
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| kevinmccullen |
Posted on 04/11/2007 12:35
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New Member Posts: 8 Joined: 25/10/2007 |
Thanks Martin for more most helpful info. One more bit of information about 'Captain' Joseph McCullen. The following is an extract from an article in the Irish Times, Feb 19th 1870: "The many friends of Mr Joseph McCullen, late mate (commanding) the revenue cutter 'Harriet', will be gratified to learn that he has been promoted to the command of the first class revenue cruiser 'Victoria', a vessel similar in size to the revenue cutter 'Fanny'." Another article dated Sept 3rd 1875 refers to 'Commander Joseph McCullen' anchoring the 'Victoria' close to where the 'Vanguard' had recently sunk to assist in diving operations. From Joseph's uniforms in the 2 photos I sent, would you say that the boat in the group picture would be the 'Harriet', as Joseph has one ring (mate) and in the studio pose he has now been promoted to Commander? By the way, have you tried 'scanning' your medals instead of photographing them. I have found that some scanners are better at recording 3-dimensional objects than others. Regards Kevin |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 04/11/2007 16:11
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Administrator Posts: 905 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Hi Kevin I have tried using my scanner, but it's still not good enough. On the question of ranks, by coincidence while doing some reading I came across the following table of rates comparing CG men to the RN: Boatman - Able Seaman Commissioned Boatman - 2nd Class Petty Officer Divisional Carpenter - 1st Class Petty Officer Chief Boatman - 1st Class Petty Officer Chief Boatman in Charge - Chief Petty Officer For Commissioned Officers, but junior to the RN ranks: Second Mate of Revenue Cruiser - Navigating Midshipman Chief Officer of Station - Warrant Officer Senior Mate of Revenue Cruiser - Navigating Sub Lieutenant Chief Officer of Revenue Cruiser - Navigating Lieutenant. So it would appear that your photographs could be of Joseph as a Senior Mate and then Chief Officer, with 1 and 2 rings respectively. As with the RN, officers did not qualify for the LSGC medal. Regards Martin |
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| kevinmccullen |
Posted on 12/11/2007 18:40
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New Member Posts: 8 Joined: 25/10/2007 |
Hi Martin Well, I did go to the NA to look for Joseph McCullen. What a place! Once I had got orientated I searched ADM 139 as you had suggested. Many of the index pages were impossible to read on the microfilm but I did eventually find Joseph, obtained his CS number (pre-fixed 'A'  and discovered that his record was not on film. I sought advice and was told I could order the document. How long? I asked, expecting a week at the least. Half an hour was the reply and soon was able to handle the actual book with the bound CS records. I could not believe that I was examining a document that Joseph signed in 1860. I took various photographs (rather than photocopies). The record shows that he signed for CS in 1860 but at the bottom of the form it is written that he had served on various vessels for 15 years or so before reaching the rank of Acting Cheif Bosuns Mate. At the top of the page is written 'for service in Racer, Tender'. This form appears to be his entry into continuous service but nothing else is recorded. Is there a continuation?I also photographed his son William's LS&GC medal. It does appear to have his name 'impressed' rather than engraved. As you said, that dates the medal as post-1877. I think it was awarded in 1890, because the service record says 'traced med. 21.1.90' in the remarks column. He would have been in the service for 10 years by then. Thank you again for all your help; if you can suggest how I might find a continuation of Joseph's record I would be obliged. Regards Kevin |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 13/11/2007 18:59
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Administrator Posts: 905 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Kevin Glad your trip to the NA was so successful, while a search on line saves time, and in my case a 2.5hr journey each way, there is nothing like handling the original documents and the sense of a connection with the man! I would have assumed that the next step after the ADM 139 series is ADM 188, but these are available online from the NA website. However, I assume that ALL the records are there, but the elder Joseph does not appear when a search is done - if your at the NA it might just be worth a check of the index to ADM 188. Again as suggested in my first post, it could be worth a check of the ADM 196 series, although I have never tried to find a senior CG man and do not know if they fall into this class of documents. Finally it might help if you can post a copy of the original service records you have got, because hidden in the notation may be an obscure clue - best I can do I'm afraid  Regards Martin |
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| kevinmccullen |
Posted on 13/11/2007 22:38
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New Member Posts: 8 Joined: 25/10/2007 |
Hi Martin, thanks again. I have not quite fathomed out how to send you an image of Joseph's records. I am new to 'forum' communications. I would like you to take a look if I can send the images to you - to get the detail the image would need to be largish. Have you an email address I can send it to? Regards Kevin |
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| johnny_doyle |
Posted on 31/01/2008 07:30
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 New Member Posts: 6 Joined: 30/01/2008 |
Hi, nice to see some info re McCullen Coastguards. I've not made much more progress on tracking my Gt Grandfather Charles McCullen, his wife Catherine nee Carson or their son James Alexander or daughter Jane Maria. James and Jane were born in Ballyphilip/Portaferry and I'd assumed that there was a link with the McCullen Coastguards who were from Portaferry but so far no link has been proved. My McCullens and the Portaferry McCullens all appear to have belonged to the Church of Ireland. There are some inscriptions re the other McCullens online at : http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/Mc/McCu.htm James Jocelyn McCullens will is online at the PRONI. The 1871 census on Ancestry has him as Second Mate on HMS Imogene in Devon. Quite a few other McCullens in the census records and 5 listed with WWI pension records from the British Army. Some McCullens are also listed on GENUKI http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Coastguards/M-O.html John |
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| johnny_doyle |
Posted on 31/01/2008 20:22
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New Member Posts: 6 Joined: 30/01/2008 |
there is a reference to the McCullen brothers obituaries in the Cork Examiner : M'CULLEN, James; ; at sea ; Cork Examiner (COR IRL); 1878-11-1; dja M'CULLEN, John; ; at sea ; Cork Examiner (COR IRL); 1878-11-1; dja obtained from http://www.irelandoldnews.com/obits/obidxmc.htm Not sure how to go about getting to see the original. "Stories from a graveyard" by Philip Lecane mentions : "Deansgrange South section also remembers men who died at sea when Queen Victoria's navy ruled the waves. On 31st October 1878 brothers George and James McCullen were lost on Her Majesty's Cruiser "Fanny". William Layng (17), was lost from the barque "Remus" on 3rd May 1888, while sailing from Liverpool to Brisbane. Sidney J. Perrin (39), died on board "R.M.S. Aorangi" while sailing between Capetown and Hobart. He was buried at sea, Latitude 47.08 South, Longitude 61.00 East." |
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| johnny_doyle |
Posted on 03/08/2008 19:51
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New Member Posts: 6 Joined: 30/01/2008 |
I found the death record for my elusive Gt Gt Grandfather Chief Coastguard Charles McCullen on Ancestry.co.uk. He appears to have died in West Derby registration district, Lancashire in 1918 aged 69. John |
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| johnny_doyle |
Posted on 07/10/2010 00:30
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New Member Posts: 6 Joined: 30/01/2008 |
have now found the marriage of Charles McCullen to Catherine Carson http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/3f456b0892508 and not surprised to find that his fatheris named as James and is a Coastguard too. Haven't a clue where to look for James though. |
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| bpa |
Posted on 07/10/2010 09:06
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Senior Member  Posts: 134 Joined: 11/11/2009 |
Your records indicate that Charles McCullen was born in abt 1849. The NA has a says a ADM record for a Charles McCullen was born in Bewley Louth in 1849. Bewley or Beaulieu is just outside Drogheda - on the Boyne rive. I think this is right Charles as the 1901 census has a Charles McCullen age 51 born Co. Louth with a son James Alex. According to ADM 175/19 pg 307 between 1845 and 1849 a James McCullen was stationed at Mouth of the Boyne, Drogheda which I think was about 1-2 miles from Beaulieu House. It may be worth checking further. Edited by bpa on 07/10/2010 09:49 |
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