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 Charles Hampton and John Dawson
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| Fred Barton |
Posted on 17/03/2010 01:44
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 New Member  Posts: 9 Joined: 15/06/2009 |
Greetings again from New Zealand ( I say 'again' advisedly, as it was June last year when I last appeared!) Firstly, I have recently downloaded (over several hours!) ADM175/6 from National Archives which deals with England CG records 1833-1844 and I have located my gg grandfather, Charles Hampton in 1841 at Harwich and then traced him back to Haddicks, Rye (1840) and Blyth Haven, Sunderland (1929). The entry on page 553 of ADM175/6 says that he arrived at Blyth from, I think, Coonanna, but the entry is hard to decipher. I first thought the entry read 'Command' but that didn't make much sense and so after looking through the names of the various Irish CG stations I think I could be convinced that the entry reads Coonanna. From the 1841 Census I know that Charles' wife, Catherine and their son Henry were both born in Ireland and as Henry was 12 in 1841, a CG posting that had Charles in Ireland by 1929 makes a lot of sense. So, can anyone with access to Irish CG records help me by confirming whether I have read Charles' record correctly and also by giving me his posting prior to service in Ireland so that I can go to the appropriate earlier Establishment Books? Secondly, when I was last with you Martin (aka crimea1854) gave me a lot of help with my other gg grandfather, James S Dawson. I'm now interested in one of his sons, John Dawson, who also served in Ireland for a number of years in the 1870's. I have a typewritten list that purports to be John's Royal Navy service, starting as a Boy 1st class in 1848 and progressing through Mariner, A.B., Boatswain's Mate, 2nd Mate, Senior Mate and then going on to Chief Officer, Inspecting Chief Officer and finally Divisional Inspecting Officer in 1889. From the dates, it seems as if the change from Senior Mate to Chief Officer took place after John's first tour in Ireland (1872/75) and before his next tour (1876/79) so am I right in thinking that his first tour would have been with the Royal Navy and that he only transferred to the CGS when he became a Chief Officer? It's good to be back in touch with you Irish-interested CG people Kind regards Fred |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 17/03/2010 08:05
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 Administrator  Posts: 906 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Welcome back to the Forum Fred. In answer to your first question you are correct it is Cunnuna (also called Kells). By tracing back his movement I have established that Charles Hampton first entered the CG Service around 1821 after having been paid of from the Revenue Cruiser Resolution; his first posting being to Kilmichaelogue Preventative Station. On 24 Aug 1822 he was promoted to Commissioned Boatman and transferred to Rintrisk, from where, on the 31 Oct 1825, he was removed to Blyth, England. On your question about John Dawson, your best bet is to see if there are any official service records available to download from the National Archives website (link below). Given the dates, there is the possibilty that there are two - one pre 1873, and the other post 1873. To help identify that you have the right man, the date under the 'Date' column is a date of birth, just in case you have two men born in the same place! http://www.nation...5Fdate+asc Regards Martin |
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| Fred Barton |
Posted on 18/03/2010 22:24
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New Member Posts: 9 Joined: 15/06/2009 |
Thanks Martin – as prompt and as helpful as ever, but your comments provoke some follow-up questions so I hope this Forum is the appropriate place to ask them, and I apologise for the length of this post. Charles Hampton: You say he was posted to Blyth in 1825 so presumably he did a bit of an ‘Irish Jig’ from Ireland to NE England that saw him going from Rintrisk to Blyth (1825) to Cunnuna/Coonanna (don’t have this date) and then back to Blyth (1829) – am I interpreting the details correctly? Presumably, too, when the entry for Harwich on ADM175/6 has a blank in the ‘Station Removed to’ column it means that Charles was still stationed there at the end of the reporting period, in this case 1844, and that I shall be able to pick him up again from ADM175/7. He probably didn’t have much more CG service as he was 52 in 1844 and was appointed as the first curator of Colchester Castle Museum in 1860. Your info has helped me trace a little more of Charles’ earlier history and although I already knew that he was born (in Milford/Lymington, Hants) in 1792 I now know that he was serving on the Revenue Cruiser ‘Resolution’ by 1821, which leaves me a 30-year gap. However, there is a family tradition that explains part of this gap but I’m not sure how much of it is fact and how much fable – A ‘story’ sent to the family in 1944 by a relation says this: “In 1808/09 Charles was taken off Dover by the French while serving in a Customs Cutter and conveyed as a POW to Calais and then to Rouen. When Napoleon was fleeing after his defeat at Waterloo he came to Rouen and was unable to cross the Seine. As he could not trust his own men he called for British POW’s to row him across, Charles being one of those involved.” Presumably there will be records of Charles’ Naval service somewhere and this might make reference to any engagement with the French – although I wonder whether the subsequent saga is somewhat fanciful! Which ADM file did you use for the Dawson records, as I imagine I can search the same list for Hamptons? The records in ADM 139 and 188 apparently only go back as far as 1853 and although there is a possible man on ADM 188/1035, the date is 1889 and Charles died around 1882! John Dawson: I duly followed your link and decided that the John Dawson born in 1838 was the best bet, even though I think he was born in 1830! I paid my £3.50 ($8.00) and now have, basically, confirmation of the typewritten list that I referred to in my earlier post. But there are some questions. Firstly, John’s stated year of birth. It is clearly given as September 1838 but then at the top of the record of service there is the note “Age on F.E. (which I take to mean ‘First Entry’) 18 on 24 Sep 48” which would mean John really was born in 1830! I’m pretty certain that I have the right man as the 1881 Census has him listed as “Chief Officer HMS Seamew” in Dorset, the NA record has him in charge of the ‘Seamew’ at this time, borne on the books of the ‘Warrior’ and my original list of his service has the ‘Seamew’ at Portland in 1881. His age is given as 50, which rather confirms the 1830 birth date. Secondly, the NA record mentions very few locations whereas the list I have has a location for each of his postings, so is there another list somewhere that puts places in as well as ships? Thirdly, the Service Record (apart from about a year from July 1852 to July 1853) is completely continuous, from 24 Sep 48 to 24 Sep 90 and in that time John progresses from Boy 1st Class to Divisional Officer. In May 1876 he goes from Senior Mate to Chief Officer so, as I asked before, is this likely to be when he actually became part of the CG Service? Or, as he is attached to one ship or another for all but the last 8 years of service, was he actually a Royal Navy man the whole time? On his daughter’s (my grandmother’s) marriage certificate in 1904 he is listed as ‘deceased’ but given the Rank of ‘Lieutenant RN’ however, there is no indication of this rank on the NA record. Was it just a ‘notional’ rank because of his position as a Chief Officer? Finally (!) are there details anywhere of any or all of the ships on which these two men served? Phew! Sorry to have gone on at such length but if you can help with any of the above this will be, as always, much appreciated. Perhaps I should add that there is a significant connection between Charles Hampton and John Dawson as Charles’ daughter, Mary Ann, married John, and from that union came my grandmother, Catherine Dawson – so I have a real personal interest in all of this! Kind regards, Fred |
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| bpa |
Posted on 19/03/2010 00:18
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Senior Member  Posts: 134 Joined: 11/11/2009 |
Fred Barton wrote:It is clearly given as September 1838 but then at the top of the record of service there is the note “Age on F.E. (which I take to mean ‘First Entry’) 18 on 24 Sep 48” which would mean John really was born in 1830! I have a relative James Donovan whose dob on his service record was given 1838 but going back through the ADM 175 books I found in the earliest entries it was 1830 but it was changed to 1838 in later books and this date was then used in the service record. It is not clear whether the change to 1838 is a correction or a transcription error or something else. I wonder whether John Dawson had a similar alteration although it may be just coincidence that it is the same 1838/1830 change. |
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| Barnford |
Posted on 19/03/2010 07:14
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 Moderator  Posts: 17 Joined: 02/06/2007 |
Finally (!) are there details anywhere of any or all of the ships on which these two men served? Fred You could try here: http://www.pdavis.nl/MidVicShips.php?page=1 Hope this helps Clive |
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| crimea1854 |
Posted on 19/03/2010 19:09
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Administrator Posts: 906 Joined: 09/07/2007 |
Fred, firstly an apology, my post of the 17 March should read 31 Oct 1825 transferred from Rintrisk to Cunnuna/Kells, from where on the 5 July 1829 he was transferred to Blyth. I just love these family stories! I suspect that there is a grain of truth in there somewhere, possibly that Charles was taken prisoner during the Napoleonic Wars, but without knowing the actual ship he was serving on at the time it is very difficult to prove, or disprove the story. On the question of records pre 1853, its a question of knowing what ship a man served on. Continuous Service only came in from 1853, and then it was optional. It was only from 1873 that every man in the navy signed on for a fixed period of Contiuous Service. However, if you do know a ship that a man served on pre 1873, it is possible to consult that ships description book to obtain a service history. I had hoped that Charles Hampton might have applied for a pension and that his application would survive in the ADM 29 series, but no luck. Turning to John Dawson. HMS Seamew was a Coastguard vessel transferred from the Inland Revenue in 1857. She remained in service with the CG until sold in 1906. I suspect that while he served at sea Naval rates would have applied, it was only when he joined a shore based CG Station that his rank reverted to a purely CG rate; but as I say this is only a guess. Out of interest you may wish to read the following post where the RN/CG equivalent rates are set out: http://www.coastg...8#post_148 Also, can you let me know what ships he was serving on between 1854 and 1856, the period covered by the Crimean War? Regards Martin Edited by crimea1854 on 19/03/2010 19:12 |
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| Fred Barton |
Posted on 30/03/2010 04:45
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New Member Posts: 9 Joined: 15/06/2009 |
My belated thanks to several correspondents – the delay has been mainly due to the fact that my wife has been re-diagnosed with cancer and we have been trying to get palliative medication sorted out as we prepare for another round of chemotherapy. So, thanks to ‘pba’ – it’s interesting to see the change in dob for your relative too. Like you, I have no answer and in John Dawson’s case, the date has not been altered on his CS Record, it is clearly shown as 1838 – although all the evidence from other records, such as Census entries, leads me to the reasonably firm conclusion that his dob was actually 1830. Thanks also to Clive for the website you mentioned – I have had a preliminary ‘play’ and, indeed I’m sure I’ll be able to glean some useful information. In most cases however, I’m looking for ships that were ‘on the books of’ some of the better-known naval vessels and so the details I’m after may not be available. Finally, thanks again Martin. Your RN/CG list of equivalents was most helpful as it explains a comment on a letter written to my late uncle many years ago. In it, the author says that Charles Hampton retired “on pension from Navy as 1st Class P.O.” but we now know that Charles left the RN and transferred to CGS in 1821. However, assuming he managed to progress from the ‘rank’ of Comm BM he held in 1844 to Chief Boatman before his service ended he, indeed, would have had the equivalent rank of 1st Class PO. You mention the ‘ships description book’ as a possible means to obtain a seaman’s service history. In the case of Charles Hampton you have already told me he transferred to the CGS from the ‘Resolution’ in 1821, so is there a SDB for this ship that I can access? Now you ask for the ships that John Dawson served on during the Crimean War. 1854/56 was early on in John’s career but I can summarise the appropriate part of his CS Record that includes these dates and see if that helps. As I think I said in an earlier post, I also have a typewritten list which my uncle must have obtained from somewhere, which actually lists the location of his service and other details, as well as the ships, so I’ll combine info from the two documents in what follows (I hope you can make sense of this as the MSWord table has not copied across very successfully!): Ship Borne on At Rating Entry Discharge Excellent Boy 1 class 24 Sep 1848 24 Jun 1849 Queen Boy 1 class 25 Jun 49 23 Sep 50 Queen Ord 24 Sep 50 2 Mar 52 Queen Ord 3 Mar 52 2 Jul 52 (Pd off) Quarantine Establishment Liverpool Mariner 11 Jul 53 8 May 54 Wellington Mariner 9 May 54 31 Dec 57 Wellington Conway A.B. 1 Jan 58 31 Jan 58 Wellington Ajax A.B. 1 Feb 58 19 Jul 58 There is an unexplained ‘gap’ from Jul 52 to Jul 53 so presumably John decided to re-enter the RN after a year away. He appears to have been on the ‘Wellington’ for the whole of the Crimean War period – did this ship see active duty during the war? Kind regards Fred |
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