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cork coastguards
cathieee
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#11 | cathieee on 10/10/2013 03:15:57
hi my great grandfather was a coastguard between 1880 ish to 1918 when he died,his name was stephen pilcher,he became chief head coastguard,he was posted at ballycotten, youghal, knockadoon an dungavan ,maybe more,he was born in queenstown about 1864,he married kate cunningham about 1896,they had 7 children,stephen,died age 18 in 1917,he was a gunner ,clara,maud,kathleen (my nan),arthur,joined the navy at age 12,died in liverpool in 1932 age 25 got pneumonia on the Yangtze river ,ernie and william,all born in different places,when he died his body was taken to england and he is burried in a naval cemetery in portsmouth,i would like to know why that would have happened,also his 2 youngest sons were sent to greenwich naval college after he died ,is this usual,also his father stephen pilcher snr was a coastguard in waterford but i think he originally was from deal in kent,he was married to mary pilcher, thanx, cathie
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cathie allen
 
bpa
You gave many family details but left out the details about Stephen Pilcher's death which is the issue you wanted an opinion, so it's not clear what you know or have found out.

After looking around - this is my guess. There is no death registered for Stephen Pilcher in Ireland - his death is registered in Hampshire in MArch 1918 and he is buried in Royal Haslar Naval Cemetery in Gosport, Hampshire (which is beside a Naval hospital). I did not buy a death cert but the summaries indicated that he died of an illness and "at sea". "At sea" usually means on board a ship but sometimes a Navy base which perhaps could be a coastguard station. So it is not certain where Stephen died - you seem to think he died in Youghal and his remains were brought to Gosport but the death registration could be interpreted that he died enroute to Gosport.

I think you need get a copy of the death certificate/registration and look at the Informants name, address and description. It may be possible to deduce where Stephen Pilcher died from the Informant info
 
cathieee
sorry,i know where he died,im more interested in his life,i cant find out any info on his marrage,where or when,i know he was born on the 20/7/1863 but i cant get any info on the net,i would like to know who his parents were,i have 2 probates,one from stephen cunningham (coastguard) who died 8/4/1898 left to his wife mary pilcher in waterford...then,one from mary pilcher who died on 27/11/1906 in waterford left to stephen pilcher ,son and coastguard,i would like to know if these are his parents,the eldest son often seems to have his fathers name in my family,hope this is nt too confusing ......thanx cathie
cathie allen
 
Tony
Hi Cathie,
You may be aware of these items.

British Admiralty. "Navy Lists" published quarterly.
Pilcher, Stephen. Seniority. 2 April 1912. Rank. Chief Officer. Year. 1915, 1916, 1917. Station. Youghal. Co.Cork.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robbery at Tramore. 1874.
Following closely upon the robbery of arms at Cork we have now a similar occurrence at Tramore. The watchhouse at the Coastguards Station was broken into on Saturday, and several rifles and much ammunition were carried off. The objects of the offenders do not admit of two constinctions ; but the question arises – What amount of proper supervision was exercised at the station, when the men “on duty” allowed themselves to be deprived of the means of defence ? Until an official investigation has taken place, the only fair inference is that lax discipline prevails somewhere. No arrests have been made.
Reference; The Irish Times 1 June 1874.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R.N.L.I. Award 1875.
PILCHER, STEPHEN. Coxswain, Tramore Lifeboat, Comm. Boatman C.G. Silver Medal
3rd.January 1875. In acknowledgement of his long and gallant services in the Tramore boat saving sixty-three lives ’. particularly when the Salcombe schooner ‘Fanny’ bound for Barbados from Cardiff, was seen
about noon on the 3rd. trying to beat out of Tramore Bay in the face of a fresh breeze and heavy sea. Just before dark she anchored close in to the cliffs, having failed to weather Brownstone Head. Realising that she had no chance of holding her anchors, the lifeboat was launched. Before the schooner became a total wreck, the self-righting lifeboat ‘Tom Egan’ had brought off her crew of seven men , returning to shore at 8 p.m.
Reference: “Lifeboat Gallantry” bt Barry Cox
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1911 Co.Dublin Census. 95/21. Crofton Road.
No.8. James Edward Pilcher. Head of family. Age 42. Harbour Constable? Royal Navy Pension. Born England...
Alice Maud Pilcher. Wife. Age 41. Married 18 years. No children. Born England
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the 1911 Co.Clare Census for Kilrush Station. Kate Pilcher has six named children. She has been married for 13 years. Six children were born of this marriage. Six children are now alive.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1901 Co.Donegal Census. Station Rutland Station.57/13.
James Pilcher.Married. Coastguard Boatman. Age 32. Born England.
Alice Pilcher. Wife. Aged 31. Born England.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regards

Tony Daly
 
bpa
There is a civil marriage record for Kate Cunningham in Youghal (mistranscribed as Yonghal in online records) in Jan-Mar 1896. You would need to get the record from the GRO to see if it is the right person.

Regarding the older Stephen Pilcher. There are a number of Baptism records where parents are Stephen and Mary Pilcher.
William (Queenstown, Cork) 1866, Sarah Ann (Tramore, Waterford, 1868), John (Tramore, Waterford, 1870), Bynah (Tramore, Waterford, 1872), Henry James (Tramore, Waterford, 1875)

There is also a civil birth record for Margaret Clara Pilcher in 1877 in Waterford.

On RootsIreland.ie website there are Pilcher baptism records in Cork for Mary Elizabeth (1860), Stephen (1862) and William (1866). You would need to buy the records to find out if they are your relatives.

If you look at the 1901 Census records - it looks like all six RC Pilcher's are from the same family. Binah is living in Waterford. Mother and daughter Mary and Clara are living in Dungarven and born in Cork and Waterford respectively - this seems to match your family.

Photo of Dungarvan grave Stephen Pilcher 1898 and wife Mary 1906 http://historicgr...-035/grave . The grave inscription mentions the Helvick which gives a starting point for cross checking.

It looks like a Stephen Pelcher/Pilcher married a Mary Verling in Cork in 1858 (there is a civil marriage record) and there are a number of family trees which link this Stephen Pilcher with the children mentioned above.

In Adm 175/70 (pg 71 in the pdf) there is an entry 1866 for a Stephen Pilcher transferred to Tramore born 21 Dec 1836 Sutton, Kent.

There are 4 possible matches entries in 1841 Census for a Stephen Pilcher born around 1830-1836 in Kent area. One Stephen b abt 1836 , Father Stephen b abt 1801 - this is a family living in Ripple Kent which is beside Deal.
Edited by bpa on 25/10/2013 09:31
 
crimea1854
Stephen Pilcher Snr joined the CG service around 1866, but prior to that was in the RN. There are three service records available for him on the National Archives website. However, you will find that he served as a Boy 2nd Class on HMS Desperate during the Crimean War, being awarded the Baltic Medal.

Martin
 
cathieee
hi thank you all so much,but i m going to try and make the knowledge i need more simply as i know i can be confusing
1. catherine(kate) cunningham was my greatnan she was christened at ladysbridge in ballymacoda on 6/11/1878 it says her parents were patrick cunningham and margaret ahern,she had 2 older sisters that had left home while she was still quite young,i would love to find out about them ..... but i can find no marrage details to stephen pilcher that would link her birth to the above ,just to verify to me that the birth info is her ......in the 1901 census it says she was born in ballymacoda ,the birth above was the only one of a catherine cunningham for that time period.
2. of the marrage i would have thought that being RC they would have married in a church,their first child was born in knockadoon so i would have presumed that they married in that area,also i wondered if there were no records kept by the navy/coastguard about a marrage.
3. of the connection with deal kent,my mum who has just died always told me that her grandfathers family was from deal in kent,i assumed that he must have come over to ireland,but i saw that on the census it said that he was born in queenstown or cobh,so it must have been the gerneration before him that was from deal
4.i found out by chance on a probate link that a mary pilcher left her monies to her son stephen pilcher,coast guard in 1906,it says she was from dungarvan waterford,on an earlier probate theres a stephen pilcher (coastguard) who left his monies to his wife mary pilcher of o connell st waterford on the 8/3/1898,this to me looks like they must be his parents,but as im new to this maybe there were lots of stephen pilchers who were coastguards ???,but it seems to much of a coincidence the 3 of them not being related.
5.i would like to find out if he had any brothers or sisters,so i would need to find out about mary and stephen pilcher when they got married whether it was in ireland or england,when they were born etc,im assuming they must have been born around 1830 to 1840 ish....there is a stephen pilcher born in kent december 1836 who s mother was born in deal,they are all from kent,but again how do i know for sure that that is him ???
6. would there be any info anywhere that would give delails of stephen pilcher snr leaving england for ireland,as i think he was in the navy,i have a big single form about my great grandfathers list of ships served in from the age of 16,he was in naval college from age 10,then his coast guard postings till his death,could there be one of these for stephen pilcher snr,showing that he left kent and went to ireland,i know that there are alot of pilchers in kent some of them coastguards too

actually i ve just been looking back at your posts and i now understand them clearer,again i want to thank you all soooooooooo much it has really helped ........cathie x
cathie allen
 
bpa
1. catherine(kate) cunningham was my greatnan she was christened at ladysbridge in ballymacoda on 6/11/1878 it says her parents were patrick cunningham and margaret ahern,she had 2 older sisters that had left home while she was still quite young,i would love to find out about them ..... but i can find no marrage details to stephen pilcher that would link her birth to the above ,just to verify to me that the birth info is her ......in the 1901 census it says she was born in ballymacoda ,the birth above was the only one of a catherine cunningham for that time period.


There is a civil marriage record for Kate Cunningham in Youghal in 1896 and on Roots ireland (which has all extant church records) there is just one Catherine Cunningham marriages in 1896 in Cork & Waterford. I suggest getting the civil record.


2. of the marrage i would have thought that being RC they would have married in a church,their first child was born in knockadoon so i would have presumed that they married in that area,also i wondered if there were no records kept by the navy/coastguard about a marrage.

RootsIreland.ie website has many of the extant church records available online but not all records have survived and not all records are online. In my experience, often marriages are in the wife's home town but the children are born where the couple are living. Kate's birthplace was Ballymacoda which is in the Youghal registration district which ties in the the civil marriage record.

AFAIK Navy / CG does not keep records of marriage but sometmes there are references to spouses.


3. of the connection with deal kent,my mum who has just died always told me that her grandfathers family was from deal in kent,i assumed that he must have come over to ireland,but i saw that on the census it said that he was born in queenstown or cobh,so it must have been the gerneration before him that was from deal

The Uk National Archive entry for Stephen Pilcher has his birth yr and place as 1836 and Deal, Kent. Another CG document (ADM 175/70) gives the same Pilcher birth yr and place as 1836 and Sutton, Kent. In the Irish 1901 & 1911 census the Stephen Pilcher born in Queenstown/Cork was born around 1864.


4.i found out by chance on a probate link that a mary pilcher left her monies to her son stephen pilcher,coast guard in 1906,it says she was from dungarvan waterford,on an earlier probate theres a stephen pilcher (coastguard) who left his monies to his wife mary pilcher of o connell st waterford on the 8/3/1898,this to me looks like they must be his parents,but as im new to this maybe there were lots of stephen pilchers who were coastguards ???,but it seems to much of a coincidence the 3 of them not being related.

I believe all the RC Pilchers in Waterford are your family and there are not many RC Pilchers in Ireland. The baptism records I provided in last post seems to indicate Stephen Pilcher (1836-1898) and Mary Verling (1840-1906) were the parents of Stephen Pilcher (abt1874-1918). The probate records are consistent with this. You are very lucky to have such a rare surname. Similarly there are only a few Verlings and they seemed to live in Queenstown(Cove) Cork and there are naval connections.

5.i would like to find out if he had any brothers or sisters,so i would need to find out about mary and stephen pilcher when they got married whether it was in ireland or england,when they were born etc,im assuming they must have been born around 1830 to 1840 ish....there is a stephen pilcher born in kent december 1836 who s mother was born in deal,they are all from kent,but again how do i know for sure that that is him ???

As I noted in my last post Mary and Stephen got married in Queenstown in 1858.

Without some personal family documents (or DNA testing through male line) you will never be 100% certain which Stephen Pilcher family in Kent is "yours" but there is a good chance it is the one in Ripple as dates and places are a closer match compared to the other familiies.

6. would there be any info anywhere that would give delails of stephen pilcher snr leaving england for ireland,as i think he was in the navy,i have a big single form about my great grandfathers list of ships served in from the age of 16,he was in naval college from age 10,then his coast guard postings till his death,could there be one of these for stephen pilcher snr,showing that he left kent and went to ireland,i know that there are alot of pilchers in kent some of them coastguards too


I'm not sure how you trace a Navy career (Martin might be able to help) and not all info may be online and may require a visit to Greenwich (UK National achive)

Have you considered contacting descendants of Stephen Pilcher (1874-1918) siblings ? On Ancestry there is a family tree for his brother John (with photo of John).
Edited by bpa on 27/10/2013 01:12
 
cathieee
thank you again so much,i have tried to get the information up of kate cunninghams marrage to stephen pilcher but i cant seam to find it,i ve just been on roots ireland and theres 3 that i ve just looked up but none of them were her s Sad cost me 15 euro s too one was in cobh on the 23 feb 1895,one was in macroom 14/7/1898,but not her,one was in clashmore on 18/2/1896 but again not her,but none of them said yonghal instead of youghal like i was told on an earlier post,is there another site that i can look that up,sorry to be a bother,thanks again.....cathie x

Merged on 27/10/2013 13:55:36:
just one more thing,you have said twice stephen pilcher 1874-1918, i know his exact birthdate was 20/7/1863 is that just a mistake on your part and you meant 1864,just checking and thanx again x
Edited by cathieee on 27/10/2013 13:55
cathie allen
 
bpa
I'm in the process of answering your PMs - so be paitent.

Regarding Kate Cunningham marriage civil record. You can see the index entry here http://www.family...1/FYCV-7M8 . Unfortunately civil records can only be obtained from the Irish GRO which does not have a proper online service - for detail see http://www.irish-...gcertslink

RootsIreland is good for chuch records but can be very expensive. I don't like using it because they seem to arrange things to make so you have buy records just to see if they are relevant (I have bought too many irrelevant records). The trick is to use as use as many terms as possible in top level search to reduce number of matches.

The 1874 date was a mistake - it was late when I was typing that message.
 
cathieee
sorry to be a bother,im a bit of a fanatic over this,im on sites for about 8 hours every night,i have managed to get alot of info for free,kates ladysbridge birth( actually i paid for that lol ),2 census,the record of my g grandfathers serves s,stephen their oldest son s will and soldiers records and place of death,records of another son arthur s naval records,3 probates,some photo s of the coastguard stations they were at etc,i just dont want you to think that im sitting here twiddling my thumbs,getting all of you to do the hard work,i really do appreciate all you are doing,dont feel that you have to answer straight away,or even do anything,but i ve found out a few things tonight that might interest

1.by chance i ve uncovered by reading his naval listings properly that after his 10 years training in the navy his first posting as a coastguard was in northumberland for a year in 1891,then he was posted to mousehole in cornwall and was there till may 1896 ,(i m talking about the stephen born 1863 here),i was just wondering if that would effect the marrage date with kate,as he must have been a fast worker to have married her in the same year as his return to ireland,though i dont know whether he would have returned on leave at anytime in the 5 years he was away ??

2. through this i found him on the english 1891 cenus ,district penzance union,par borough st ives,it also says RG12/1856, but i dont know what that means,but another funny thing on it was,on the list where it says married its got a funny squiggle next to his name,most of the adults on the list have it too,only the children dont,does this mean that he was married,because if he was it was nt to my greatnan as she was only 13 at the time.

3.there is one final thing thats annoying me,i joined archives and i was looking up steven pilcher and he s there,with kate,and my nan with all her brothers and sisters,but they re all wrong,some of the childrens birth dates are the wrong way round,his eldest son also called stephen who was born 1899 it says 1905 died 1923,he died in 1917 in the war,i ve got his will and dead and burial info,also he s on both census at birth 1899,it says clara 1899,she was 1900,it says ernest born 1899 died 1902,he was born1905 and died late 1911,again he s on both census,my nan,maud and william are all correct,though i had arthur down as 1908 birth not 1910,well i know im right as i have photos of him and william and theres deffo more than 2 years between them,the date of birth and dead for stephen is cooect but it says he was born in kent,which i know he was nt coz of at least 4 official documents all say queenstown,cork,i think they have him mixed up with one of the many s,pilchers from kent,also my greatnan kate,it has the right year of birth and her death in liverpool 1946,though i think it was a year or two earlier,but it says she was born in tipperary and her parents were called john cunningham and catherine cunningham higgins,yet i know she was born in ballymacoda because it has it on the census s,this also gives her different parents,theres far too much of this family not to be mine,all the names are correct,but places and order of births are all wrong,do you know why this maybe

well i ll leave it there,i dont want to totally frazzle your brain,and please just let me know if im annoying you,and i ll be patient too,thanx again....cathieSmile
cathie allen
 
bpa
2. through this i found him on the english 1891 cenus ,district penzance union,par borough st ives,it also says RG12/1856, but i dont know what that means,but another funny thing on it was,on the list where it says married its got a funny squiggle next to his name,most of the adults on the list have it too,only the children dont,does this mean that he was married,because if he was it was nt to my greatnan as she was only 13 at the time.


The squiggle is an S for Single. The squiggles in this column are either handwritten script "S" or "M". The other possibility is W for widowed but not on this page. Marriage status is only applicable to people older than 18.

3.there is one final thing thats annoying me,i joined archives


I don't know which "archives" site you are referring. If it is a site with user contributed records, then it is likely that two families have been mixed up by one or more contributors. If it is a national archive site - then it needs more investigating.
 
crimea1854
Cathie

You can buy Stephen Pilcher Snr's service records (3No.) from the National Archives (link below), these will only provide details of his service, no family information:

http://discovery....image1.y=8

Martin
 
cathieee
hi martin,i ve just bought 3 of those achieves and they are all the same person i think ,they all have the number34176 hand written on the forms of them all,one is of ships served from 1853 to 65,one is from 65 to 78 at sea and medals etc,the other is from 78 till death,coastguard and helvick point,cost a tenner but worth it lol,the form where it says dec 2 nd s not very clearly marked so i think it was guessed wrong,i have tried to post the forms on hear but it tells me its not in the right form,im rubbish on the technical side so i dont know how to send them,but i just wanted to say thanks for putting me in the right direction
..................................cathie Smile

Merged on 07/09/2014 03:42:28:
HI,NOT BEEN ON HERE FOR A WHILE BUT I JUST WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW THAT I WENT OVER TO IRELAND AND FOUND THE GRAVE OF MY GREAT GREAT GRAND DAD AND NAN ,STEPHEN AND MARY PILCHER,IN THE CHURCH OF IRELAND ST MARY S GRAVE YARD,THEY WERE IN A SECTION I THINK FOR PEOPLE WHO SERVED THE COMMUNITY ,THERE WAS A CONSTABLE NEXT TO HIM, WHICH IS PROBABLY WHY HE WAS NT BURIED IN A CATHOLIC GRAVE,ITS A BEAUTIFUL PLACE RIGHT ON THE SEE AND YOU CAN SEE HELVIC HEAD FROM THERE,SO I DUG A HOLE ON THE GRAVE AND PUT SOME OF MY MUMS ASHES ON IT,WE ALSO WENT TO CAPPAPH,KILRUSH CO CLARE ,VALENTIA ISLAND CO KERRY, BALLYMACODA WHERE MY GREAT NAN WAS BORN,YOUGHAL CO CORK AND DUNGARVAN,TRAMORE,HELVIC HEAD AND BALLYMACAW CO WATERFORD ,ALL IN 5 DAYS,WE DID 905 MILES IN OUR VAN,TYPICAL OF ME I HAD NO IDEA HOW BIG IRELAND WAS,WE DID NT GET TO STAY IN EACH PLACE LONG,THE PEOPLE WERE LOVELY AND SO HELPFUL ,SO WILL DEFFO BE GOING BACK ,JUST THOUGHT YOU MAY BE INTERESTED COZ ALOT OF IT IS DOWN TO YOU AND OTHERS ON HERE ,THANKS AGAIN X
Edited by cathieee on 07/09/2014 03:42
cathie allen
 
willoughr
Hi Cathie

I was interested to come across your posts here and can add something on Stephen Pilcher senior, from research I have been doing for a book. His entry is as follows:


Pilcher, Stephen. Boatman, HM Coastguard & Coxswain, Tramore Lifeboat. Ministère de la Marine life saving medal in silver, second class (France); RNLI silver medal. 14.1.1867; 3.1.1875. Waterford.

Awards: Stephen Pilcher received his Ministère de la Marine silver medal for rescuing at great risk, the crew of the French schooner L’Anemone, wrecked at Tramore, Co Waterford, on 14 January 1867.

Eight years later, Pilcher was voted his RNLI silver medal on 4 February 1875 ‘in acknowledgement of his long and gallant services in the Tramore [life]boat saving sixty-three lives’ and particularly for his services on 3 January 1875 when the Salcombe schooner Fanny, en route from Cardiff to Barbados, was unable to work out of Tramore Bay past Brownstone Head and, instead, anchored close to the cliffs just before dark. Realising the Fanny had no chance of maintaining her position at anchor, the Tramore self-righting lifeboat Tom Egan launched to go to her assistance. Pilcher and his crew reached the schooner before she became a total wreck and saved her seven crew, before returning to shore at 8pm. Pilcher was presented with his RNLI medal at the Tramore Petty Sessions on Monday 22 March 1875 (Waterford Standard, 24 March 1875, p. 2).

Biographical details: Born on 21 December 1836 in Sutton, Deal, Kent, the son of agricultural labourer Stephen and his wife Elizabeth Pilcher, Stephen Pilcher was a seaman before joining the Royal Navy as a Boy (2nd Class) aboard HMS Waterloo on 12 December 1853. He was posted that same day to HMS Monarch, then moved to HMS Wellington on 8 February 1854, HMS Formidable on 2 May 1854, and HMS Desperate on 24 June 1854. He agreed to serve for 10 years continuous service on 24 December 1854 (CS 5910, 34176A and later ON 77864). He served aboard the Desperate during the campaign in the Baltic and was subsequently awarded the Baltic Medal 1854-55. Transferring to HMS Pylades on 9 January 1855, Pilcher was promoted to Boy (1st Class) on 21 October that year and to Ordinary Seaman on 20 October 1856. He transferred to HMS Hawke on 19 November 1856. In 1858 Pilcher married Mary Verling (c.1840-1906) in Cork. Together they would have at least eight children, including: Elizabeth (c.1860-1879), Stephen (1863-1918), William (1866-), Sarah Ann (1868-), John (1870-) , Bynah (1872-), Henry James (1875-1879) and Margaret Clara (1877-). Pilcher was promoted to Able Seaman on 2 January 1859, then to Leading Seaman on 10 December 1860, Captain of the After Guard on 6 March 1861 and Captain of the Main Top on 1 April 1861. On 12 February 1863 Pilcher transferred to HMS Archer and then to HMS Vindictive as a Quarter Master on 6 June 1864. Signing on for for a further period of engagement on 14 August 1865 aboard HMS Hastings, Pilcher was then mustered aboard HMS Black Prince from that date until he volunteered to serve with HM Coastguard as a Boatman on 25 June 1866. He was initially based at Tramore, where he was promoted to Commissioned Boatman on 9 September 1869, and he received the Navy Long Service and Good Conduct Medal on 23 July 1875. In 1875 he was noted as having participated in several other rescues in the locality, including saving the crew of the Austrian barque Meo, for which he had received a £3 reward. Pilcher was posted to Granfeen Point in December 1877, and Helwick Head from May 1879. Having been promoted to Chief-Boatman-in-Charge on 2 July 1878, Stephen Pilcher retired on pension on 22 December 1891. Remaining in Ireland, Stephen Pilcher died from heart disease in Dungarvan on 8 March 1898 and was buried in St Mary’s Church graveyard there, his wife being interred in the same grave eight years later (TNA ref: ADM 139/60 and 742, ADM 171/21, ADM 175/20 and ADM 188/68; Marriage: Cork Registrar’s District, Jan-March 1858, vol. 4, p. 512; Death: Dungarvan Registrar’s District, Jan-March 1898, vol. 4, p. 447; Waterford Standard, 24 March 1875, p. 2).
Roger Willoughby
 
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